E85, who's running it?

[confused280z]

So fast track has E85 now, anyone planning on running it? It's 105 octane and will pull more heat out of the air than gasoline, win-win for a turbo car.

I'm tempted to buy some bigger injectors than I planned originally, probably in the 700cc range so i never have to worry about going static with an even bigger turbo, and use the megasquirts map switching ability and hi-res code to get a nice idle on gas.

[85 Shelby]

Originally Posted by confused280z

So fast track has E85 now, anyone planning on running it? It's 105 octane and will pull more heat out of the air than gasoline, win-win for a turbo car.

I'm tempted to buy some bigger injectors than I planned originally, probably in the 700cc range so i never have to worry about going static with an even bigger turbo, and use the megasquirts map switching ability and hi-res code to get a nice idle on gas.

I think you need some fuel system upgrades to run e85. Stainless steel lines etc.

[Brent_Strong]

Talk to Mike at Innovative before running it. He has posted somewhere about his issues or concerns with running E85 for a turbo car. Not sure if they still hold true though, but I'm sure he'd have valuable input.

[ritfordprobe]

I am not sold on it yet. Its pretty cool, but what if you are driving somewhere that doesn't have it? I am pretty sure that if you can't switch back to a map that accepts regular gas, you will be stuck in a tune that uses 30% more fuel, and your car will run like shit, if at all.

[confused280z]

Originally Posted by ritfordprobe

I am not sold on it yet. Its pretty cool, but what if you are driving somewhere that doesn't have it? I am pretty sure that if you can't switch back to a map that accepts regular gas, you will be stuck in a tune that uses 30% more fuel, and your car will run like shit, if at all.

Hence the map switching ability. The stainless lines are a good point, I believe that anodized aluminum works too. The stock lines are steel on my car. From what I understand e85 is corrosive because of the water it will absorb, this makes me think steel lines wouldn't be quite as big of a deal on a car that gets driven regularly.

[strikeback03]

We ran M85 in the first FSAE car I worked in, used two throttle body injectors to cool the airstream then port injection for the main charge. Worked well for cooling the air, but we ditched the turbo the next year for other reasons and went back to regular gas.

No turbo for me, so I wouldn't use E85

[BPipe95]

I try to stay away from subaru forums, but while reading up on a recall last night I noticed a bunch of legacy guys are now running E85 with great results. Down side is that you have to keep a lap top with you while you travel in case you can not find e85 you can flash a diff map into the car.

[Rutch]

Originally Posted by BPipe95

Downside is that you have to keep a laptop with you while you travel in case you can not find e85 you can flash a diff map into the car.

Asus eee PC fits in the glovebox and even with the purchase of the Tactrix cable, it's still cheaper than Cobb's AccessPort! Win.

I'll look into E85 more when they start selling it out here in the sticks...

[ritfordprobe]

Originally Posted by confused280z

Hence the map switching ability. The stainless lines are a good point, I believe that anodized aluminum works too. The stock lines are steel on my car. From what I understand e85 is corrosive because of the water it will absorb, this makes me think steel lines wouldn't be quite as big of a deal on a car that gets driven regularly.

Do you have the MS map switching working in your car yet? I know a bunch of people were having trouble getting it to work right. It is a nice feature, I know they did something similar on rrsti's car in Buffalo. Its not using Megasquirt, but it has a switch that changes the timing and fuel maps, as well as the boost level.

[Rutch]

Originally Posted by ritfordprobe

It is a nice feature, I know they did something similar on rrsti's car in Buffalo. Its not using Megasquirt, but it has a switch that changes the timing and fuel maps, as well as the boost level.

Was he running a Utec? You can switch between like 5 maps on those, and you can switch on the fly.

[BPipe95]

Originally Posted by Rutch

Asus eee PC fits in the glovebox and even with the purchase of the Tactrix cable, it's still cheaper than Cobb's AccessPort! Win.

I'll look into E85 more when they start selling it out here in the sticks...

that's a good idea

[confused280z]

Originally Posted by ritfordprobe

Do you have the MS map switching working in your car yet? I know a bunch of people were having trouble getting it to work right. It is a nice feature, I know they did something similar on rrsti's car in Buffalo. Its not using Megasquirt, but it has a switch that changes the timing and fuel maps, as well as the boost level.

I don't have anything working yet, speaking of which, I think I'll go plumb the rest of my fuel rail in(with the stock injectors for now)...

[Baldturbofreak]

Im getting ready to pump the bugeye full of it and tune. I'll let everyone know if I run into any issues.

[Innovative Tuning]

You guys are missing a MAJOR issue.

You say you will tune on E85 and tune on gas and have two maps, then try to go back and forth when you can't find E85, run gas, then go back to E85. Any time you do that the tune will be totally wrong unless you're totally draining the tank from a plug or plugs depending on the tank design. You'll have to retune for each tank of gas if you don't totally drain the tank dry.

I ran my car down below empty on the gauge and filled the tank with E85 3 times before I got all the gas out.

Then I still had to retune the car whenever I filled with E85 because the station wasn't keeping the mix of E85 consistant. Why weren't they keeping the mix consistant? Because they absolutely don't have to. E85 just means up to 85% ethanol to gas and all flex fuel cars have a sensor that measures the concentration and dynamically adjusts the tune to account for it.

Lets say you DO have a consistant supply of E85 because you bought ten 55 gallon drums at once that were all part of the same batch and only fill up at your house...where you have these 10 drums of gas...LOL. Lets say you also drained your tank bone dry before putting E85 in. You can't go anywhere and fill up somewhere else with E85 or gas without retuning. If you fill with E85 from elsewhere you have to retune a bit less. If you drive somewhere and can't find E85 then you fill with gas you cannot just switch to your gas map unless you literally drain ALL the E85 out of the tank. Otherwise some will be in there and the mapping will be lean...probably dangerously lean.


Do not jump into tuning a non flex fuel vehicle on E85 lightly. If you can't tune your own car it's not something I recommend. Even though I tune for a living and love doing it...this was a pain in the ass I didn't need. Each retune after fillup only took a couple minutes, but I couldn't be bothered after a while.

Having one of the sensors in your tank and getting it properly calibrated to trim ignition timing, boost, and fueling automatically would take a lot of work, but once you had it, that would avoid the PITA. Of course if you changed the setup on the car you'd have to retune this too if you wanted it to be optimal. That starts the PITA all over again.

[reliant_turbo]

what kind of standalones have the option to run a flex fuel sensor?

i think megasquirt can use a GM flex fuel sensor.

Brian

[Baldturbofreak]

Yup. The code is kinda rudementary though. It makes a slide rule type table with an adder for ign and PW based on ethanol content.

From most of the reliable data that Ive compiled it need similar advace under light load/stoich and a few degrees less under heavy load.

So far so good with scooby doo. It's running .8 lambda and runs like a raped ape.

the Rice-tastic SuperAFC is still in there from when I bought it, so I have been trimming using that to get CL fuel trims +/-5%. Maybe not ideal at this point, but it's running good and not getting any KR.
IDc's are getting pretty tall. I may have another psi or two before the pink's hit 95%dc.

We'll see how much it devaites from tank to tank as the ethanol content changes.
I always get it from fasttrack so it should only change when they get a new tankfull.

But I'll agree, defintly not a game for newbies.

[Baldturbofreak]

GReat site to learn about the tuning changes you might encounter.

http://e85vehicles.com/e85/index.php#3

[Cavi Mike]

I think the biggest question is why? If your car is a track star, just run alcohol. If it's a street car, what's the point? Is it really worth the horrible gas mileage?

[ajp11]

I think a lot of people want to do it just to do something different. I personally wouldnt do it, but I think some people have a lot of fun messing around with something new.

[jxs1984]

how is the mpg with e85?

[Cavi Mike]

Originally Posted by ajp11

I think a lot of people want to do it just to do something different. I personally wouldnt do it, but I think some people have a lot of fun messing around with something new.

Alcohol + gasoline = not new

[confused280z]

Originally Posted by Cavi Mike

I think the biggest question is why? If your car is a track star, just run alcohol. If it's a street car, what's the point? Is it really worth the horrible gas mileage?

105 octane means more boost on the street without spending $6 a gallon on race gas.

[Cavi Mike]

I'm not sure how long it would take you to see the savings after you've replaced every piece of your fuel system to accomodate not only the extra amount of fuel but the water that comes along with it. I would have to guess quite a long time.

The only good thing about E85 are the cars that can run it, not the fuel itself. The cars that can run it already have fuel systems that can handle alcohol. Cars that can't run it aren't any different than they were before E85 appeared on the market. You still need to convert you car to an alcohol car and it's no more easy today than it was yesterday.

[confused280z]

What about a car that already needs to have the majority of the fuel system replaced? It costs just a little more than standard stuff, so it makes sense.

[Baldturbofreak]

After '95 when MTBE was replaced with ethanol it was mandated that all vehicles shall now tolerate up to 15% ethanol.

Fuel lrails are usually hard anodized, fuel lines are plated steel,stainless steel or plastic.

I know of almost noone that has done a single thing to "convert" to E85. None of them are doing it for Mileage or savings.

Could there me some penatance for this indescresion down the road? Perhaps. But people like me arn't too concerned with the Doomsday boohoo of
fuel system damage. If there ever ends up being any.
We do it for:
1) fun
2) a challenge
3) purely to run a renewable resource.
4) redicustupid booost on "pump gas"
5)Like the smell of it.

My observations so far:

No change in drivablilty now that the tune is close
Small increase in milage so far.
Runs like a Scalded monkey.

[reliant_turbo]

i probably wont run it on my current fuel system because i already have some corrosion in my fuel system from 21 years of old lady parking the car in the garage with not a whole lot of fuel in the tank. i had to put in 4 bottles of drygas to get the water situation under control when i first built the car. id hit it and all of a sudden the car would cut out and the EGT's would go to 0 even though my foot was to the floor.

sure it could cost you a motor if everything corrodes and clogs up when you are at high boost but then thats an excuse for larger lines (you were probably pushing the limits on the line size anyway) and some motor upgrades.

Rick, where is your new shop?

Brian

[black85IROC]

Sounds awesome rick!! i still havn't gotten a chance to see the bugeye completed yet. i still have to get down there to check out those seasonal access roads...

[Cavi Mike]

Originally Posted by Baldturbofreak

3) purely to run a renewable resource.

LOL A renewable resourse that uses just as much fossil fuel to make. E85 is probably going to dissappear in a few years because it's pointless so stock up now!

[Sonic Boost]

Originally Posted by Cavi Mike

LOL A renewable resourse that uses just as much fossil fuel to make. E85 is probably going to dissappear in a few years because it's pointless so stock up now!

I think the reality is that most any car enthusiast making the change to run E85 is doing it for the cheap octane boost. I found C16 last year for 10/gallon (and that was really cheap)....that gets expensive quick when you can run 80% of the boost on something that costs less than 2/gallon right now. Throw in frequent oil changes because of the nastiness of race fuel and E85 looks better and better.

I have not made the switch yet personally, but it is something I am giving a lot of consideration to. If you dont like it, dont do it.

[Baldturbofreak]

Originally Posted by Cavi Mike

LOL A renewable resourse that uses just as much fossil fuel to make. E85 is probably going to dissappear in a few years because it's pointless so stock up now!

That's an urban myth. Athough the energy I/O relationship isnt exactly sugarcane like, it's far better than opponents would have you belive. You arnt hitting the fields with fertilizer on this corn like you would freshmarket stuff.
As with all technology, the drive and strive for efficiency comes with time and use. When BIomass extraction comes online, the energy I/O will be much better. 10X the current yields, what's even better is the biomass can come from plants that need no fertilizer and grow anywhere. Such as switchgrass, leftover stalk silage, etc.
Locating fermentation plants over geothermal hotspots can eliminate the need for external fuel sources. Likewise the heat could be purchased/recycled from powergeneration utilities, industial processes such as steel mills, etc.
I support the use of E85, as it's demand and infrastructure are paving the way for a more ethanol based economy/energy infrastructure.
Besides, I grew up farming. At least some of the money is staying here.